Another Signalling Question. Eine weitere Frage zur Signalisierung.

[simonjackson1964]

I have learned that SH0 overrides HP1 or HP2, and that SH1 overrides HP0. This for semaphore signals presumably also applies to the Type 69 light signals? (But not the KS signals that work on a different system).

My question is twofold:

First, is HP00 (two red lights) the equivalent of SH0 - where the type 69 Lock Signals also show two horizontal red lights, and the Man 69 blocking signal will show SH1 with two diagonal white lights and a single red light.

Second, I read somewhere that SH1 permits a train to drive "until the end of the shunting movement". Does this mean that a single SH1 will override all following HP0 signals? But will presumably end at the next SH0 or HP00?

(Our system here in the UK is a lot simpler!)

Ich habe gelernt, dass SH0 Vorrang vor HP1 oder HP2 hat, und dass SH1 Vorrang vor HP0 hat. Dies gilt für Semaphor-Signale und vermutlich auch für Lichtsignale des Typs 69? (Aber nicht für KS-Signale, die nach einem anderen System arbeiten).

Meine Frage ist eine doppelte:

Erstens, ist HP00 (zwei rote Lichter) das Äquivalent zu SH0 - wobei Typ 69-Sperrsignale ebenfalls zwei waagerechte rote Lichter zeigen, und das Haupttyp 69-Sperrsignal zeigt SH1 mit zwei diagonalen weißen Lichtern und einem einzelnen roten Licht.

Zweitens habe ich irgendwo gelesen, dass SH1 einem Zug erlaubt, "bis zum Ende der Rangierbewegung" zu fahren. Bedeutet das, dass ein einzelnes SH1 alle nachfolgenden HP0-Signale außer Kraft setzt? Endet die Bewegung dann aber vermutlich am nächsten SH0 oder HP00?

(Unser System hier in Großbritannien ist viel einfacher!)

 

[Goetz]

vor einer Stunde schrieb simonjackson1964:

I have learned that SH0 overrides HP1 or HP2, and that SH1 overrides HP0.

You're mistaken on the second statement. Well, sort of ...
This is what I learned from playing with the Studio and reading the odd posting in forums. There may be exceptions to my claims, but this is the gist of it:

The HP signal protects the main line all the way to the next station or another Hp signal (for block separation), 
whereas the Sh signal protects the rail section immediately thereafter, only up to a marked point in close vicinity (or a followup Sh signal).

vor einer Stunde schrieb simonjackson1964:

Does this mean that a single SH1 will override all following HP0 signals? But will presumably end at the next SH0 or HP00?

The zone that's protected by the Sh signal doesn't reach that far. Never past any Hp signal except the one at the same spot.
Sh (for Schutzhalt, i.e. protective stop) is a local signal, whereas Hp signals are for the journey to the next destination.
Shunting is (in this context) always a local operation.

Sh0 supercedes any HP signal, because you cannot enter the main line when the section immediately after the signal is inaccessible.

But Sh1 doesn't override HP0, because it grants access only to a short stretch of track, nowhere near the end of the block that is protected by the Hp signal.
On a type 69 light signal, you won't see any Sh indicator when it displays Hp1 and above.
Only when the HP part shows stop (Hp0), will the Sh element indicate if a local shunt move is allowed or not.
When shunting is prohibited too, this combination is labelled Hp00 and indicated by two red lights. 

When you have an entry signal for the oncoming traffic, the Sh zone will end before that.
This is to protect any shunting operation from oncoming traffic.
The picture shows a compressed mockup:

I hope my English wasn't to quirky this time of night :-D

Kind regards
Goetz

[simonjackson1964]

Thanks, Goetz You are extremely helpful as always. (If there were a "Customer Satisfaction survey" thing for this website you would have 10/10!)

So, to be specific, I am working on an industrial layout where type 69 signals control a two-track main line and several industrial sidings for delivering raw materials and taking away finished product.

Entry into the sidings from the main line is controlled by Hp00/Sh1. (I considered using Hp2, but that didn't feel right, as technically, entry into a yard is a shunting move even if it's with a main-line locomotive?) My question concerns the exit from the sidings back onto the main line. Is Hp0 sufficient to halt a train that has passed a Sh1 signal within the same block or is Hp00 required?

Also, when exit from the yard is permitted, I am planning to use Hp2 - proceed slowly, due to the bends, points, crossings etc... But should that instead be Sh1? Is the entry to the mainline and departure on it a shunting move or a main-line move? If it's a shunting movement then the previous question becomes moot and I will swap the signals for the Sh ones. There is a main block entry signal just off the picture, which would be set to Hp1 (assuming the next block is clear).

Thanks

Simon

Bearbeitet 29. Juli 2023 von simonjackson1964
Add anotherquestion...

[Goetz]

Hello Simon,

the two marked signals in your screenshot must (to all my knowledge) display HP00.
That is always the case when tracks join. Maximum protection is required at such spots because of the risk of trains coming in on the other branch.

Hp0 is sufficient when there's no danger from traffic coming from the side.
Block separation is a classic situation for Hp0, because the only concern here is a train in front of you occupying the stretch of track after the signal.
A station entry may also use Hp0, when the incoming track only fans out into many. Here too, your only concern is what lies ahead.

Sh1 allows a maximum speed of 25 km/h 
They are the wrong choice for any station entry, regardless if the station is for passengers or freight and if you consider entering the station a shunting operation.
Sh1 is used where you want to exit a section within a station. The Sh signals divide station areas into many small sections.

Again, this is from what I learned while playing with the Studio.
I'm not a train driver, nor an expert on signals by any other definition. 

Kind regards
Goetz

[simonjackson1964]

Once again, thank you for the information.

So the signals ringed in red are correct, and will display Hp2 when "off".  The signal I have ringed in green should show Hp00 if there is a trailing point on that track before the next signal. Which, as it happens, there is.

I'm pretty sure that I want to hold a through-train at the signal before entering the complex of junctions, in the event that a train is already leaving the yard in that direction. Of course ideally the through-train would have priority but if the freight is already moving I definitely don't want the through-train passing that signal, even if there were another signal closer to the junction.

[Goetz]

vor einer Stunde schrieb simonjackson1964:

and will display Hp2 when "off".

nope!

Hp2 is a "clear" condition with a speed limit (mostly, but not exclusively 40 km/h)

No signal ever shows "clear" unless the guarded section is

1. clear of any obstacles
2. protected against any traffic from other directions (i.e. all other signals are set to HP00
3. reserved for a train entering the section from this signal
4. with all switch points set correctly

The default position of your signals is Hp00.

Bearbeitet 29. Juli 2023 von Goetz

[simonjackson1964]

Um... Okay maybe terminology is different here. When a signal is "on" it is at danger, and when "off" it's clear... So it would display Hp00 when "On".

[Goetz]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb simonjackson1964:

maybe terminology is different here.

Apparently, yes. Sorry for the misunderstanding

 

[Henry]

Hallo zusammen,

wer sich über Britische Eisenbahnsignale informieren möchte, erhält hier ein paar grundlegende Kenntnisse.

Die Terminologie ist unterschiedlich zwischen (ON und OFF) mit (HALT und FAHRT). Das sollte man beachten, meint

If you want to know more about British railway signals, here is some basic knowledge.

The terminology is different between (ON and OFF) with (HALT and FAHRT). This should be kept in mind, says

Henry

Bearbeitet 29. Juli 2023 von Henry